Living a Creative Life with Dave Holmes (MTV, Esquire)

[00:00:00] Rob Howe: Hello, podcast listeners. We are back with guests, and I'm very excited to introduce today's guest. I have known him since around about 2018 or 19. We met through Instagram.com. Ever heard of it? He actually came to a Breakthrough T1D event in Dallas right before the pandemic and then was a guest shortly after on Rob Howe Has a Live Show, for you longtime listeners who remember that little program. He spent the late 1990s and early 2000s as one of the faces of MTV during the TRL era as a VJ. And these days you'll find his byline at Esquire where he's an editor and writer with one of the sharpest and funniest voices in pop culture. I also love his series right now that he's doing on Instagram, Rating Bad Songs. His name is Dave Holmes. He was misdiagnosed as a person with type 2 diabetes in 2009 before finding the right answer in 2015 through a local diabetes run club in Los Angeles. That makes his story even more compelling for this show. We dig into creativity, living a creative life, the ways that Dave and I are actively working on getting out of whether it's a rut or finding inspiration or getting into a practice doing morning pages and the artist's way. We also talk about the universe sending things in your path. When you're living out your life as an artist, all of the things that the universe puts in your way to meet you where you are. And we also have a little fun at the end where we do a draft style segment. So the last 15 minutes or so, we are drafting our three favorite songs with bad advice in them. So it's a bad advice song draft with Dave Holmes. Really fun episode. Hope you guys enjoy it from one of the more creative and prolific writers. and one of the coolest and most unique and creative people that I know with type 1 diabetes. So ladies and gentlemen, he needs no further introduction. Dave Holmes. Guys, who was MVP of the chat? Rob Howe! Rob Orton Howe! What were you on?

[00:01:57] Unknown speaker: We need more of that.

[00:01:59] Rob Howe: Dave Holmes, welcome to... Rob Howe. I almost said welcome back. But we first met, I think, right before maybe 2019, we were really first connected. And you came to Dallas for JDRF at that time, now Breakthrough T1D. We're on a panel for us weeks before the world shut down. Yeah, yeah. So like those were the circumstances. It does feel like that's been a long time now. But you were also one of the only guests on Rob Howe Has a Live Show during that period where everyone in the world had a live show during the early days of the pandemic. So welcome back in that way. But welcome to Diabetics Doing Things.

[00:02:36] Dave Holmes: Thank you so much. Happy to be here. That panel was one of the last normal things. And then everything changed. Everything changed.

[00:02:45] Rob Howe: Even since some of those things have come back, there's always the just never the same as it was before. So I want to talk to you quickly about diabetes because we have never talked on this podcast about your life with diabetes, which started as a misdiagnosis. You were running marathons and very active in the running community at the time and were diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. It took going on six years to get a correct diagnosis that really came through diabetes communities. When you think about that, that's going on 12 years now.

[00:03:19] Dave Holmes: Yeah, when I first got the diagnosis, I guess it was maybe around 2010-ish, something like that. And I had lived in Los Angeles for a few years by then. I was getting more active and all that. And yeah, a couple checkups in a row, I had kind of a high-ish A1C. And so, of course, when you are an adult, the assumption is that it is type 2. And so I went on metformin and nothing really changed. And I was checking myself obsessively just day to day. Blood glucose got higher and higher and higher. And after a couple of years of that, I started to get the symptoms that everybody talks about. you know, I was losing weight, which at the time I was happy about for a while. And then, and then I got a little spooky and, and, you know, going to the bathroom all the time and all that kind of thing. And I just thought like, this, this doesn't make sense. This just doesn't make sense. But my doctor just wouldn't do the test. And so finally I had to change, I changed my insurance to a PPO so that I could take myself to an endocrinologist and get the test done. And I forget exactly what year it was, but this doctor had just moved to LA. He had just opened his practice the first of the year or it's the second of the year and it was like the first day that he was open i was one of his clients and uh or one of his patients then he ran the tests and sure enough it was you know type 1 or or whatever the LADA or whatever but it was it was a autoimmune situation so it put me on insulin right away and which was great because suddenly it was

[00:04:49] Rob Howe: like okay now i've got an answer you know well and you know doing this screening is i think now Now, hopefully we're having those conversations, at least in like the diabetes corner of the world. Getting screened, I think for me, we're taking, everybody gets their blood work done or you're supposed to get your blood work done at least like every year during your physical or seeing your regular doctor. It doesn't seem to me that hard to add the antibody test once in a while there just to make sure that things like getting misdiagnosed because you're, you know, then you don't have to go through those years of questioning and wondering why the medication isn't working and kind of moving in your head against the wall. And feeling bad on top of it.

[00:05:26] Dave Holmes: And feeling crummy on top of it. So that exact same thing, by the way, happened to my editor at Esquire at around the same age I was. I've been to one of my good friends in L.A. who was around the same age. Really similar stories at really similar ages. Two other guys from my high school graduating class of 50 at around the same time got diagnosed. Yeah. So I don't know. Something funky is going on. I don't know what it is.

[00:05:54] Rob Howe: I'm glad you brought this up because I actually saw a chart and this was a couple of years ago. I was at a diabetes conference in Italy and they were sharing a chart of diabetes diagnosis percentage or maybe likelihood of diagnosis by age group. And so it had like the axis on the bottom was, you know, the age group and the x axis or what have you was the percentage of likelihood that you would be diagnosed. And as you get older, you know, in the beginning, it's obviously higher. And what we know about type 1 diabetes historically is like it was originally juvenile diabetes. Young people get it, right? Right. It drops down a little bit and like kind of normalizes through the like 20s and 30s and then 40s. And then it starts to creep up. And by the time you hit 70, your likelihood for getting type 1 diabetes after the age of 70 is never more high than it is then, which is really strange. Which you wouldn't necessarily think of. And the treatment is different because there's no risk for like long-term complications at that point. Right. Right. Yeah. I found that to be really fascinating. It's like, yeah, you're more likely to get it the older you get.

[00:06:57] Dave Holmes: Yeah. Interesting. You don't think that. And also doctors don't think that. So, I mean, they're not trained for that or whatever.

[00:07:05] Rob Howe: This is good. At least I'd put you in a category of people who live an extremely creative life. not only like from your output but like your outlook the various careers that you've had on air being a writer being a podcaster a social media short form content creator all of these like niches and interesting expressions of your creativity uh and i i wonder i wonder i think as somebody who also wants to live and and trying to live a creative life and non-traditional career. I want to talk a lot about that today. You and I will go into this as well. A few months ago, going on 60 days ago, you posted in your Instagram story a photo of Julia Cameron's Artist's Way, something I came across when I was in the improv and sketch comedy community as writing morning pages and the like. You had posted that in your Instagram story. And you didn't know this at the time, but I was on this sort of search mission to do an internal bootcamp. You and I were talking about this before we hit record. my wife and I are expecting our first child soon. And, you know, I'm trying to, before my life changes and my priorities get automatically default shifted, I'm trying to see what's there and what I can get going for myself creatively in the meantime. At that time is when I discovered, I saw that story, I liked it. And now I'm in a small group of folks who are doing our morning pages together. And I wanted to express some gratitude to you for that. But I want to get You were also maybe on the path of going through a creative refresh or looking to fill that creative well. So how did that come about?

[00:08:39] Dave Holmes: I'm always working on a few different things, as you have to. But there are a couple sort of big projects that I'm really excited about that are so close to getting greenlit. For me to actually get started working on them. But the last step before a green light is this endless deal making. And it's always endless and it's always frustrating because it is taking place in rooms that you're not allowed into. And it's bean counters with very different jobs than mine and yours. And it's frustrating. And this particular moment in the industry is making everything longer because there's great uncertainty everywhere and everyone's merging. And so long story short, I'm a little bit going crazy because I'm waiting for a couple of things to officially start. So that requires a couple of different things. It requires me to do a ton of freelance writing just so I can get my bills paid. And it also requires patience and the ability to not sit and stew and think about it forever. And so I thought, like, maybe The Artist's Way would be a good thing for me to do right now just to generate ideas for other things that I can do creatively that I don't have to wait for someone else's approval on and that maybe don't necessarily have anything to do with, like, getting my bills paid. This is a good time for me to generate just creative ideas for myself. And I will say The Artist's Way is something I've never actually finished. I've owned this copy of the book I've owned since 1997, probably. And I've never finished it. I've done it significant. Like I've made strides in it twice through the years. And both times right around week eight, something happens that ends up stealing my focus. Like some kind of breakthrough happens that it's like suddenly I'm very busy and I can't, I'm not able to finish it. literally the first time I made it to week eight and that was the week that I went to audition for MTV and I got that job which is like which changed the entire course of my life so that's like I don't know it is sort of a magical thing the artist way and I also feel like everyone does better with accountability so I thought it might be a good idea just to put it out there and see who else uh who else bites and you did which I'm so glad you did and I I hope that the process has

[00:11:10] Rob Howe: been helpful to you. It has. And you're right. It is sort of magical. I think the stories in the book as well, and the sort of social proof of all of the people who have done it over the years, millions of copies sold and whatnot. My story is similar to yours. I've gave it a real shot once and I've given it a half measure a couple of times, but it was sitting on my bookshelf. It's been, you know, I've owned it since 2015. So, you know, going on 12 years and I've never been able to make it past like week six. And so this is basically week six for me. So I'm in a new career high of not only like making progressing, but not missing a day. And like, I can say like, I started this year, like trying to push as like the year of the breakthrough. I was like journaling, I've been doing good about my journaling practice, but not in a traditional, for those listening, like the morning pages is supposed to be three pages of output. So you don't always get there, but like that's the measure and i think that there is something magical about like the amount of time and like making it to that distance of pages i don't know what it is i can't quite like quantify it but yeah if when when i do that like there really is something like kind of the emptying of those inner quieting of the inner thoughts like silencing the inner critic like getting it all out there it makes the next thing easier to do because it's almost certainly not writing three pages was unprompted. I think just the momentum and alignment it has brought me in these six, six, seven weeks now, it's exciting. And I, and I'm like you, I'm going to see this one through. I really want to get to that place where hopefully I do get overwhelmed by some awesome creative project that is forcing me to take, take my eye off of it because that's ultimately like as, as artists, that's the magic that we want to find. That's what you want to find for sure.

[00:12:50] Dave Holmes: Are you, when you do morning pages, do you truly do them very first thing?

[00:12:54] Rob Howe: I have been. Yeah, I have been. So my morning routine, the past six weeks, I wake up, I go outside and I get my Andrew Huberman morning sunlight routine, what have you. And it's Texas summertime. So all my plants need water. So I water my plants and that helps me get going. I go inside. I do like a little bit, like five minutes of like waking my body up kind of morning workout. Nothing serious, just like building that. And then I go and I knock my morning pages out. So nice. I brew my coffee while I'm doing my little workout. My coffee's ready. I got to sit down and I start writing. Nice. All that before the phone is the key. Like all of that happens before I touch the phone. That's the thing. That's the thing. If you touch the phone, your day is ruined or my day is ruined anyway.

[00:13:38] Dave Holmes: I'm the same way. Yeah, it's bad. It can steal your focus and screw your focus for the whole rest of the day. Yeah, so yeah, I'm going to say maybe 70% of the time I do the pages very first thing. But I will tell you, and then the other part of it is, it's like a 12-chapter, 12-week program filled with exercises to sort of help wake up your inner artist and that kind of thing. We're exactly six weeks into it, but I'm on week three because it took me forever to like, you know, really start it and really take the week one exercises seriously. Week two took about two weeks. So now I'm on week three and I want to start doing it like really Monday to Monday. Well, it becomes, it's tricky because it's like

[00:14:21] Rob Howe: the morning pages is every day. And I think for me, I had to be like, all right, well, what's the most important thing for me to do? I could easily distract myself with reading the book and then not do any of the pages. And so I just, I have like, I went through week one, It took me about two and a half weeks to get through week one, but I kept my practice of the pages. So I need to go back and do more of this sort of extra stuff to cultivate that. And that'll probably help my writing as well, just getting through and listening to some of the questions and things of that nature. Yeah. Let me ask you this. It is helpful. When you don't do them, you said 70% of the time. When you don't do them first thing, do you feel weird? I feel guilty. And that's not great either.

[00:15:00] Dave Holmes: you know i i start to feel like a jerk for not doing the thing that i am trying to make myself accountable to do i don't like having guilt in my being i also feel i feel like nervous like i

[00:15:11] Rob Howe: like i'm doing something wrong like i like i know i should have done this i probably had time but instead i looked at my phone or i did whatever i was doing right right and yeah it just always kind of it hangs over the day i wonder yeah kind of as we're as we're talking about this too like the artist way is a great way to get unstuck and like you know advice for people who feel stuck How do you, when you feel guilty or you're feeling like the critic or you're feeling like not inspired, what's your process for getting out of it?

[00:15:39] Dave Holmes: Boy, I try to move. I try to move my body. It's real, real hot in LA right now. But I try to go for a walk. Honestly, just taking the dog for a walk around the block can be so, so important. And with that, too, it's increasingly I have to leave the phone at home when I go for a walk. Like sometimes it's nice to have the headphones on and listen to listen to some music and listen to a podcast or whatever. But more and more, I realize I have to like sharpen my focus and those things can make my brain feel kind of scattered. So, yeah, just just moving is really helpful. Trying to like write for pleasure, you know, just do some dumb, like give myself a dumb exercise, like, you know, write a page full of dumb haikus or like, you know, fill a page with like names of breakfast cereals that never existed or sitcoms from the 80s that never happened. or whatever. Just do something. Just trick myself into it. Stuff like that is helpful. While we're on the artist's way, let me say this. I'm going to butcher the way that it is said in the book, but there is this principle that's like, if you take a step toward your creative self, then the universe takes 10 steps toward you. By acting and by activating these things, You're putting energy out in the universe that's going to come back to you and things are going to, opportunities are going to arise. So get this. Last Thursday, I had not done an artist state. You're also supposed to do an artist state for those who don't know the, like once a week, you're supposed to take yourself out, go to the movies, go to an art gallery, whatever. Just do something nourishing for your artistic self and by yourself. So I hadn't done it. And I had some time late afternoon last Thursday. I was like, I'm going to go to Highland Park, funky neighborhood on the east side in L.A. with a lot of like thrift stores and record shops and whatever. I'm just going to go record shopping. So I did. And it was great. And then on the way back to my car, this comedian who I love, who I had never met, and his wife were at an outdoor table at a bar on Figueroa. And we know of each other, but we never met. And we just sort of our eyes locked on the sidewalk. And it was like, hey. So I like sat and talked with them for a while. And then there is a vinyl, like a vinyl listening bar a block away. And they were finishing up. And I was like, you know what? I was actually just going to have a glass of wine at this like, right, like this vinyl listening bar down the block. And they're like, great, we'll come. so we all went and uh and we're chatting away and then they left i'm like signing my tab and one of the owners comes over and knows me from mtv or whatever and so we start talking and he's like you should dj here you dj right rob i don't dj i don't but i have wanted to and and this is a very low impact kind of way to do it because you're doing it from the owner's gigantic record collection and it's you know you're not like it's not i'm not going to be trying to be a vici and like getting the crowd jump in. It's about setting the mood. But not yet. You're not yet doing that. Not yet. Not yet. But this is my start. So so I was like, oh, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, in a week and a half, I'm going to go and DJ at this like groovy vinyl bar in Highland Park, which I've always wanted to do. So just that's, you know, that is, I think, an example of like the kind of thing that can happen when you open yourself up to these things or maybe just leave your house more and go to places that you wouldn't ordinarily go. Maybe it's as simple as that. But I do think there's something kind of deeper to it.

[00:19:07] Rob Howe: I think so, too. You know, and whenever I always kind of match things because I'm like a sucker for any kind of nonfiction or any sort of artistic or cosmic, you know, interweaving spiritual evidence of the creative self, right? The higher self and like action being the teacher in that. And for me, I'm curious. I thought about, you know, because we have been talking about doing this interview for a little over a week now. So something came up recently about bad writing and how essential bad writing is to a person's creative self and creative development. And a lot of what I consider I write in my morning pages is bad writing. I'm just dumping it out, getting it out of my mind, untangling myself. As it should be. No one's going to see it. Exactly. No one's going to see it. I'm not even going to see it most of the time. I'm not going to go back and look at it. for you like as you think about today where like i've become aware of i guess a real fear of young people right now in the world and we're talking about the phone a lot today uh is being filmed doing something embarrassing uh and that going viral or like putting themselves out there i think in particular this is around like people and dating and things like that is like being filmed trying to ask a person out and not going well and that going viral and that being like a real deep-seated fear for a lot of young people. And I think the same can be applied to whether it's a social media post or whether it's a manuscript or whether it's an idea or whatever it might be, a business. Fear of getting started, fear of being a beginner, fear of getting made fun of. And so I thought of when I read this post about bad writing, I thought of you as like, you know, you are an editor at Esquire, like you've written in many publications read by many people where it's good writing and it's gone through editing and revisions and other things. And notwithstanding, I enjoy it. But the idea of not every word that Dave Holmes ever writes is inspired and well thought out and ready for publishing. So how do you think of beginner's mind or bad writing or putting yourself out there even maybe when you're not ready for mass consumption?

[00:21:09] Dave Holmes: That is still hard for me. That's still really hard for me. Like I am a crazy perfectionist when it comes to my writing. And I don't like like it is an editor's job to edit me. Right. And to give me notes and to, you know, help help guide me. And that's that's still really hard for me because I came to magazine writing anyway, very much through a backdoor. I always wrote for pleasure, you know, wrote for like the, you know, high school and college paper a tiny bit, but like never did it seriously until kind of the early days of like blogs and Tumblr and that kind of thing. And then I kind of stuff that I would have just done as like a journal I got to put out and kind of figure out my voice a little bit. and then that led to magazine work and and the kind of stuff that i got assigned to do or like the columns that i would pitch or whatever came very easily to me and so they were just sort of flow out and so i didn't need uh a ton of help because these ideas were sort of had been percolating and then it was like then you run out of those and and also around this time i got um i got a deal to write a book and and i and sitting down to have to write that whole thing it was like I don't, maybe everything that I had to say, I already said in the pitch that like got me the deal to do the book. Like there was a lot where I was like, oh, I'm stuck. And I needed, uh, I needed to like turn in bad work. You know, my first draft of my book, I was like, this is bad and I'm not proud of it, but I have to give my editor a draft because that's what the contract said. Like this on this date, I have to get this in. It took so much to put work that needed help out there. It made me feel very much like I'm a fraud as a writer. Like, I actually don't know how to do this. And I'm going to hit the end of my ability. And that's going to be that. And of course, that's not how it works. Like, everybody turns in crummy drafts. But I hate doing that. I hate doing that. That makes me feel, it really makes me feel fraudulent. So yeah, I don't know. That's still a thing that I struggle with. But what I'm trying to just remind myself is that is that everybody goes through it and and and that is why um that is why teams of people exist we all want to help each other we all want to help each other succeed so yeah i don't know it's uh i i it has forced me to uh confront my uh perfectionism perfectionism can be very cool and it can make you your work good or it can stop you from doing anything because it's not perfect in your head.

[00:23:46] Rob Howe: It's kind of the balance between like paralysis and like nothing ever coming out. Yes, paralysis is the word.

[00:23:52] Dave Holmes: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:53] Rob Howe: And you know, the geniuses who call it analysis paralysis, like just overacting or overthinking it. And you're right, it is a tough balance because like you want to have some level of taste. You want to have some level of artistry, but also like you said, like you have commercial deadlines and there's people waiting on you to finish something. And I think about those kids though, who are afraid of failing or looking silly. And for me, like basketball is interesting because it's my background, but like everybody basically misses more shots than they make. That's, yeah. But we never talk about that publicly. It always seems like everybody makes it all the time.

[00:24:29] Dave Holmes: That is a thing. That's a thing about sports that blows my mind, which is you can be a professional sports player and make a mistake that like costs your team the championship or loses the game in the regular season or whatever. But then you've got to show up the next day and like keep doing it. And also all your team, they're still your team. They're still your friends. I'm not a sports person at all. I'm like much too self-conscious. And if I ever messed up when I was a kid, I was like, well, that means I'm terrible. And I've let everyone down. And it was just like horrible. But that is a beautiful thing about sports now, like watching people make a mistake. And it doesn't mean that they suck. You know, they don't suck. They're very good. They're where they are because they're really good. The ability to shake it off, I guess, and get back into the game is what is impressive to me. Well, listeners, I promise I'm working this

[00:25:19] Rob Howe: back around to something that's relevant to your life, but resilience. And we were talking about this. We had a basketball clinic for our kids with diabetes on Saturday. And so people are asking, and I think often ask when they're newly diagnosed with diabetes, does this get any easier? And my answer lately has been like, no, it doesn't get any easier, but you do get better at it. And I think that's where, you know, back to creativity and back to is like, yeah, it's still really hard. And it's refreshing to hear you say that as well as like somebody who's had creative success at the level that you have, like to say, yeah, I still hate my first draft. I still don't like turning in something that's not my best work because then it's like, okay, well, this is just a little normal. Like I'm just, I'm experiencing what it means to be creative. I think you're right, too. Like, and kids especially, you know, you have to be on a sports team, fail in front of your friends and family. And then immediately, sometimes like in the next hour, have to get back out there and do it again. And you're getting feedback from adults that aren't your parents. And they're maybe in the moment seem really mean, but it's like trying to make everybody better. But there's just it's a really interesting like development that, you know, again, back to in the time that since we've met virtual education, you're not in a classroom, you're not face to face with your students sometimes anymore, especially for a long period of time. We weren't. Yeah. And we're only really now experiencing the fallout of that. And a lot of it is just lack of leaving the house and interacting with other people. Right. Right. And we forget that, like, yeah, we're just we're just out there having these interactions. We're all self-conscious. We all want ourselves to do well and are afraid that if we don't, we'll totally be rejected.

[00:26:54] Dave Holmes: The learning of social cues and of how to interact and read people in real life is, you know, the kids are still going to have to do it, right? It can't all be remote forever. And I think that they like doing it.

[00:27:06] Rob Howe: Like, we're discovering that, like, oh, yeah, this stuff is actually pretty great. Going to a bar and seeing friends that you haven't seen in a long time. Maybe going out and making a mistake a time or two is a good thing. It's important.

[00:27:18] Dave Holmes: It's important. The idea that a mistake can go global, can go viral is terrifying.

[00:27:26] Rob Howe: Shifting the conversation a little bit to what's filling your creative cup lately? When you are excited about something or what's lighting you up or giving you new ideas or new energy?

[00:27:36] Dave Holmes: So I'm trying my hand at fiction right now. And that is really fun and scary. There is a book idea that I've had in my head for a long time. This is funny. Like six months ago, a good friend of mine who's a who's a screenwriter. I was in town and was at our place. And we were just sort of talking. And there's a story from real life that inspires the idea that I've had in my head to start working on for a long, long time. and i told him that story and he just looked right at me and he said you have 30 days to outline this or it's mine and it's like and it's and he could actually turn it he could sell it like that he said i i am not i will steal from you like so you've literally the the rights revert to me in 30 days so get moving and it was like all right okay i like i like that as like positive consequences

[00:28:29] Rob Howe: right? Like you're, you know, it's a small group. There, there are consequences. They are real. And also like, it helps if the person is like that where they're like, Oh yeah, I know that they can take this idea and make it real. So I better get on it. Yeah. Anything to like light

[00:28:42] Dave Holmes: a fire, I think is super important. Well, and you talked about accountability earlier too. It

[00:28:47] Rob Howe: doesn't always have to be negative where you're getting graded. You can just have somebody who's there. We have our little artist way group, same thing where you can see some of the amazing things that people are making when they're feeling inspired, which has been a big light bulb for me creatively, is just to be around other people who are making stuff. But also, I've seen people talk about, yeah, we have horrible consequences if we do something that we're not supposed to do or miss a deadline, like you have to donate to a nonprofit that you hate or something. And you have your fear of making this terrible donation with your name on it, or your friend taking your idea to wild success are the consequences of inaction.

[00:29:28] Dave Holmes: Exactly. Yeah. The swear jar kind of mentality. Exactly. Exactly. Having to punish yourself a little bit. So yes, dipping into that world a little bit is very, but it's also inspiring and fun. And even if nothing happens with it, the joy of world building is unique and it's not something I've ever done before. And then, you know, like cooking and grilling, just stuff like that. We just downsized my mom into a new place, which is like a memory care place. So there's no kitchen. So I inherited the bundle of recipes that lived in like a big Tupperware tin. Decades of recipes that were all on like backs of envelopes or hotel notepads or whatever. Total chaos, which actually makes me feel very close to my mom. But that's a separate situation. It was like, you've got ADHD too. But like there are all these casseroles and it's all like there's so much cream and mushroom soup and so much oleo and breadcrumbs and stuff. But I've been kind of going through that and trying to, you know, cook my way through it.

[00:30:29] Rob Howe: Yeah.

[00:30:30] Dave Holmes: Just like any creative thing that isn't writing will typically fire up a part of my brain that is useful.

[00:30:37] Rob Howe: Classic writer answer to just anything but writing. Let's yeah, we'll light it up.

[00:30:44] Dave Holmes: Yeah, totally.

[00:30:45] Rob Howe: How about you? What do you do? I'm big into getting into my body as well. like getting out and walking, moving, sweating, I often feel better. Something I've been doing more lately is Joseph Goldstein has a podcast. He's like a meditation guru. He leads retreats and things like that. And they turn some of his lessons into podcasts, which is just an easy application of that media. And I found like, instead of just consuming a movie podcast, which is fun for me and I like, lately I've been doing, especially if I'm in a particular uncreative or feeling a little stuck. Listen to, I have five meditations or so. I was raised in the South, so I call them sermons sometimes because that's just the word that I feel about them. It's like, you know, in an audience. And I listen to those. So like, I'll go outside, walk around and, you know, learn that even the Buddha at the highest level of enlightenment, you still are guilty of comparison. Like that's the last thing to leave before you're able to, you know, levitate while you're meditating. So, you know, the fact that I'm experiencing a little bit of comparison is like a normal thing. And I think that's what I'm trying to normalize as much as I can. I'm experiencing maybe a struggle where I'm not where I want to be or something that I was doing is now not going as well as it was or I'm kind of in that creative slog where it was such a great idea and we're pursuing it, but now we're in the middle of making it happen and I don't want to do it anymore. And I think what helps me get out of that is to something lately, non-action is not inaction. I can just like put it aside, go do something else. And usually going to do something active, Like you said, maybe leaving the house, even for a short time, just going on a walk or going on a drive somewhere. Yesterday, my wife's out of town, so it's quiet around the house. Instead of just scrolling on Netflix or HBO and finding a movie to watch, we have this movie trading company, like a DVD warehouse right around the corner. I was like, I'm going in there, seeing what I found. Nice. We got to interact with people. And I hadn't the movie Snatch with Brad Pitt and Jason Statham from 2000. I had never seen and it wasn't streaming anywhere. So I went there to get it. And what do you know? There was another person in the store at the exact same time there to get Snatch on DVD. Wow. Which was super weird. Well, there were two. There was enough for everybody. Nice. And so we got to share a laugh. It did. Yeah. It was, you know, it was a weird thing. I was totally out of my normal routine. And I imagine it probably was for that person as well. But the universe provided. I love that. In its own little way. it's kind of i'm like i laughed and i told her too i was like isn't it weird that we both came here for the same uh dvd and she was like yeah i guess it kind of was in a small way like a little bit of miracle that happened just a really interesting thing yeah and you're you're using

[00:33:30] Dave Holmes: instagram for this ball spinning project yeah which i love i think stuff like that is really is really fun and interesting and such a fun use of a tool that can be a time suck at best and, you know, a doom window at worst. I'm glad you brought that up because

[00:33:52] Rob Howe: I don't know if people know this, Dave, but you can just do stuff. You can. You can just try stuff. And, you know, I'd love to be going on the podcast circuit and telling people how learning to spin a ball on my finger at age 37, my back patio has made me rich and famous and brought notoriety from all over the world. And it has not, it has not done that. Right. But like I was telling you kind of before we started recording, what it has brought is connection to people that I've known and, you know, I haven't talked to in over a decade in some cases and even longer than that. And also just like my close friends sending me a text being like, hey, try this. Yeah. And, and also identifying people in my life that I didn't know who could spin a ball that now I know that they can't. So just, you know, more critical information for the old Rolodex. I love that. I love that. And where do you stand right now? Well, so it's today, today will be later. I will record day 28. I have decided that I'm just going to do 30 straight days. I'm going to make a video as well, kind of documenting my first try to my final try, and just to see the visual progress, I can actually do it pretty convincingly. Every session now, I'll have 10 or 12 spins that would have been my best spin I had ever done on day one. That's great. I'm not challenging the Globetrotters. You guys know that on the pod, my first real entertainment job was playing foil to the Globetrotters. I'm not going to be replacing them anytime soon, but I now see it from their perspective, which is important.

[00:35:24] Dave Holmes: That, by the way, is so cool. Like, I love that I know a Washington general. That's the thing that I haven't done like a 30-day project like that. But a few months back, just because I found myself with an afternoon where it was like I had nothing happening. And I was like, I'm just going to talk into my camera. Or actually, I was getting these weird videos in my feed that were like affiliate houses. Yes, yes. I love these. I love these.

[00:35:50] Rob Howe: Your take on these was so good.

[00:35:53] Dave Holmes: Thanks. I still don't understand what they are, but it's like these young people like rent a house and it's and they all are doing videos and it's and it's like pain points. I don't know what that means. Everyone's saying all this terminology that I don't really get. And they're and they're all like young with their shirts off. And I just I don't I don't understand it. So I did like I I used one as like a like a palette to do like a little tiny monologue. similar thing. People I hadn't talked to in a long time got a hold of me or I never really had looked at Instagram numbers or how posts do or whatever, but it was like a lot of people are watching this. And then it was like, okay, well, I can just do content on Instagram if I want to. Then that led to, of course, each new day brings some dumb new outrage in the world. And so I was like, well, let me just rant into my camera for a minute and see what happens. And then those started to do well. And then Esquire was like, Hey, you should write a post about that, but then also you should do a video that will cross post. And then that'll tease the, the, the essay on the website and whatever. And so now we're kind of starting to, that whole thing is starting to come together. And then, yeah, that's just fine. Like learning how to edit these things and do captions and add little sound cues and stuff. I'm not an editor, but I can learn the basics and I can learn how to make it flow. Well, and that's fun.

[00:37:18] Rob Howe: If I had to actually give myself a measurable skill that I've become better at in that time, it's definitely making the videos. I'm so much more competent in, okay, boom, I've got this video. I can chop it up. I know how this works. And I kind of overcome my fear of, oh, even if this isn't the perfect edit, I can still ship it out and it'll be fine. But also it took me maybe 30 minutes on the first day. And now I can crank one out in about 10. And it's just as good, if not better. So learning that. I love those affiliate videos because I also had seen them. They had come across my algorithm and I was like, I don't know what this is. Like, this is clearly I felt so old watching them. And then to see your monologues as your characters in your various affiliate houses made me laugh so much.

[00:38:02] Dave Holmes: Thanks. Thanks. They're fun to do. I should do another one of those.

[00:38:05] Rob Howe: Well, we've talked a lot about creative miracles. I'll give you one last one. It's a quick little story. I haven't told this on the pod yet. So we were talking about action. We're talking about the universe. We're talking about, you talked a little bit about your mom and the recipe thing. My dad died in 2018. And for a long time, I was really resisting that. And as I started to work my way into acceptance, I started to experience these sort of not metaphysical, but very weird interactions with strangers who I would later characterize as like, oh, I think that was like my dad crossing the plane and coming back and interacting with me. It first happened, this four foot 10 Thai man in Thailand said something to me that only really my dad would ever say, just like a word or phrase that he used. And it really stood out to me. And I later was like, I think I met my dad in Thailand and he was a four foot 10 Thai man. Yeah. And it's happened a few times since then, but recently, I promise I'll weave this back in, but the reason I started the ball spinning video is because I was at a conference where we did one of our basketball clinics and four or five kids asked me during the clinic whether I could spin the ball on my finger. And my answer was, I kind of shrugged them off and I said, basically no. And that inspired me to start the spinning thing so that the next time the kids would ask me, I would be able to at least give them a good effort. The reason that clinic happened, though, the day before I'm like setting up these basketball hoops in the parking lot at one of the Disney resorts. It's late in the day. My trip has been very busy, so I've had limited time to do this. And I kind of give myself deadlines at times where like like you with your friend who is going to publish the story. If I don't get this done by this time, like this big thing that's hinging on me won't happen. So I can't fail. So I'm doing this, setting up these basketball hoops the day before my event. And this guy drives by, a maintenance guy from Disney, and he says, again, a turn of phrase that reminds me of my dad crossing the threshold. And everything's going well putting them together at that point. But an hour and a half later, he comes back and things are not going well. I can't get past this certain step without another set of hands. And then this guy comes in and he helps me put these hoops together for the next two and a half hours. We don't finish till 10.30 p.m. Without him, it wouldn't have happened. and I offered to, he went way above and beyond. So I gave him a little tip as a thank you for helping me. We had talked during that time. I'm Robert IV. Turns out this guy was Tommy IV. He also had diabetes unbeknownst to me and he was a type 2 diabetic. So all these things are happening where I'm like really picking up on the psychosphere here. Right. And then the next morning I went out or woke up early to go get the hoops and move them into the conference center. And there's a note on the rental car and I open it up and it says, Rob, you said this was meant to be, but you don't know that three weeks ago I missed a couple of days of work and I've been really working overtime to try to make up for the wages that I lost. And you helping me last night, really me helping you last night was really you helping me get to where I'm at. So again, back to the universe here. And again, that led me to the clinic where the kids asked about the ball spinning, which put the ball spinning into effect. So you never know where, what cosmic you know universe elements are at work to bring something out of you so you're in the flow of it you're just continuing the flow of it because i didn't start it thinking that i was going to be doing this for 30 days yeah i just was like we're gonna try see what happens and like i i wasn't looking at the performance i wasn't like i was just trying to challenge myself to do something new and yeah yeah it's been really worthwhile a very interesting experiment so i love it all that to say i have also noticed some of the content that you make when you open the phone and you talk to it uh is really funny dave holmes area of expertise which is bad songs and so yeah i want to do a bit of a steal from some of our sports podcast brethren and do a draft of our each of our top three favorite bad advice songs okay so songs that that are absolute jams and we love to sing them but if you dig a little deeper you're like this is terrible advice yeah and so i'd love to to do a little segment of the robin dave bad song draft so do it you were the guest

[00:42:28] Dave Holmes: so i'll uh i'll give you the first pick boy this is a tough one because it's like are these advice songs are they songs that give young people a distorted view of the way the world works i think yes and yes okay okay i think the older that you get uh the the more that you must re-examine your relationship with every breath you take by uh the police okay because it is you know it's one of those songs that like it's this love song you know and it's about extreme devotion and whatever but then you actually listen to it and it's like oh this is uh illegal like largely what you're talking about here is illegal at worst and just bad for the soul at best you know what i mean it's stalking yeah basically stalking yeah obsessive love it's probably fun to write songs about certainly like if you are if you're crushing super hard on somebody it's fun to listen to but But you got to really pay attention to what is psychologically unhealthy. And I feel like the behavior depicted in that song is bad for the soul.

[00:43:37] Rob Howe: I agree. And I first examined that thought because I was I grew up watching The Office. And this Jim and Pam relationship was often depicted as this like beautiful relationship. And, you know, they play they'd play that song every breath you take over over the track. And it's like, yeah, actually, did you guys realize the song is about stalking? Yeah. It's about an obsessive, unhealthy relationship from one side.

[00:44:02] Dave Holmes: It's crazy how much romantic comedy behavior from decades past you look at now and it's like, oh, God, no. Leave her alone. Leave her alone. She is telling you she wants to be left alone.

[00:44:18] Rob Howe: Yeah. Read the room here. Yeah.

[00:44:20] Dave Holmes: And in real life, the outcome is not going to be as heartwarming. You're going to be in prison.

[00:44:27] Rob Howe: A great pick. a great pick for your number one thank you okay uh similar to you it's like this is the older i get when i was in college i drove uh i drove a truck for our print shop that was my first advertising job was i was the delivery guy for a print shop yeah so i got to listen to the uh there was no cd or tape player in the truck so i had to listen to the radio which is which was great you know at the time a lot of top 40 spins in that time yeah that was like 2009 the year of Lord 2009, Obama White House, life was good. Housing market was, you know, we weren't quite aware what was happening just yet. So pushing us forward was a song called Teenage Dream by Katy Perry. Wow. Again, it's a song about young love. It's a song about excitement. Let's go all the way tonight. No regrets. Again, let's get drunk and go down to the beach. Let's get a motel and build a fort out of sheets. You know, all these things that are, you know, when you say them flippantly or seeing them quickly you're like oh yeah this is harmless you start to think though really are you in a in a healthy position uh to make these decisions uh when you're when you're

[00:45:36] Dave Holmes: a teenage dreamer yeah your frontal lobe is not fully developed yet right i think yeah let's put the brakes on some of that yeah i think so yeah yeah and uh yeah and you know katie herself has made some questionable choices through the years even in adulthood yeah that's true we're We're all still growing, are we not? I guess we are. Yeah. It never stops. One that I kind of thought of is the Meredith Brooks song, Bitch. I'm a bitch. I'm a lover. I'm a child. I'm a mother. I'm a sinner. I'm a saint. I do not feel ashamed. Again, the behavior depicted in this song is unhealthy. It's psychotic at times. It's chaotic at times. It is a person who I think should be saying, I'm a patient of a therapist. You know, that should be in there. There are, we're all a lot of things. We all contain multitudes. But this particular song, I feel like, lets the listener off thinking that some of their damaging and unhealthy personality quirks are fun rather than things you need to work on as you age.

[00:46:45] Rob Howe: Yeah, it's like, maybe we should be examining our inner child. Maybe we should be, you know, really doing that deep inner work before we place these other labels on ourselves.

[00:46:55] Dave Holmes: Right. This too is why I can't get on board with the Real Housewives franchise because it's all of these women. I mean, that's reality TV in particular, but you see it very specifically on the Real Housewives franchise because all of these women at the beginning of the show turn around and they have like a tagline. Yeah. And frequently it's like what they say about themselves, it's like, that's bad. Like, you should, don't say that. out and don't say that at all certainly don't say it into a microphone the hell is wrong with you

[00:47:26] Rob Howe: you know and like it frames your entire character too like it's like you know i may be a lot of things but i'm bitch number one and it's like sure okay i get it now yeah yeah and and and i

[00:47:38] Dave Holmes: think i think those shows well they certainly they incentivize bad behavior for the people participating in them and i think they also they model bad behavior for young people who watch them You know, I would be horrified if like a niece or nephew of mine was like, oh, I think I watched, you know, the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and that's the way I'm going to act.

[00:48:00] Rob Howe: Yeah. It's like, what's your major going to be in college? Well, I'm trying for Real Housewives of Rhode Island. That's my goal. That's my goal. Yes.

[00:48:08] Dave Holmes: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just tried again with that one. And again, I can't do it. I don't like watching people be mean. I don't like, it bums me out.

[00:48:16] Rob Howe: It's hard. My wife is our reality TV content consumer in the house. I get to ride shotgun and offer commentary. Sure. So this is, I'm adopting, co-adopting. Always welcome, I'm sure. Always welcome. I get to co-opt this theory from her though, which is good reality TV requires people who are a little bit bad. Because if we're not watching a wholesome inner child work version of Real Housewives of Rhode Island, we need as toxic as it gets.

[00:48:44] Dave Holmes: And we wouldn't. We wouldn't. We wouldn't. Like, yeah, there would be no point in that. Yeah, for sure. I understand why it has to be the way that it is. But it's just, yeah, it leaves me feeling sad.

[00:48:54] Rob Howe: Ultimately. It does. Well, I'm fortunately going to continue to magnify those feelings of sadness with my next selection, which is 2016's Closer by the Chainsmokers, which I hadn't really thought of until it came on a mix the other day at our basketball clinic, which was full of cleanly edited songs for our children participants. but it's just a series of bad decisions like we nobody ever asked while we're moving to the city in a broke down car on this mattress that we stole from our roommate back in boulder nobody ever asked should we be doing this at all should we maybe just uh pump the brakes on this uh the backseat of the rover that i know you can't afford we should really just get in there and question all of our choices but the beat hits and it drops and we continue on and you know the Chainsmokers whether they're investing in venture capital or doing multiple shows in one day throughout the european coastline uh you know continues and really are we closer or are we further away than we've ever been from who we should be boy wow that's a really thoughtful answer the chain

[00:49:57] Dave Holmes: smokers also had a workout app for a while i forget what it was called but i did i did a review of it for esquire a few years back because they they they did a couple of like the the the videos uh on the app i mean god bless them and and i can't knock the hustle but not um not not the cleverest guys on camera you know what i mean they need a script and they were they were off script how was the word did you do a workout how was the way i did and it was it was pretty it was hard it was hard okay yeah it was a lot of it was like hit body weight type of stuff it wasn't it

[00:50:33] Rob Howe: wasn't bad they're in good shape yeah i feel yeah you have to be i feel like for the type of shows I mean, good for them. I also feel like that's a great vehicle for, you know, vertical integration. Where does the music get played? It gets played in the gym. We have something for you there, too. Right. Fascinating.

[00:50:49] Dave Holmes: Yeah, God bless them. You know, you mentioned sanitized versions of songs. Okay. one of my dearest friends is the guy who created Kidz Bop he was if you're i don't know if you're probably too young to remember this but he he also came up with the idea for monster ballads do you remember monster ballads probably don't it was it was late 90s he was at he was at Razor & Tie Records and he had this idea uh of like a compilation cd of all like the ballads from the hair metal years because every hair metal band had a big power ballad oh monster ballads was like the first compilation cd to put them all on one disc and and you would see commercials for it on late night tv all the time and whatever so he he made a lot of compilations like that fired up like several and you would always see commercials for him on late night tv and then he got the idea for Kidz Bop which was taking popular songs of the day and sanitizing the lyrics so that if you are listening to them with kids in the car they can sing along and you don't have to feel bad but every now and then he will uh like rewrite the lyrics for one and because they have it down to a science he'll get his session guys in a room and have them do the the backing track for it and he'll have a vocalist do the vocal for it and just create a demo very quickly and the super bosses like the ceo of the company will be like absolutely not we can't be associated with that song at all And that brings me to my third and final choice, which is a song that has aged incredibly poorly, which is Blurred Lines. Okay. That is a, that is, it's, again, we're getting into questionable sort of ethical and legal territory with the behavior that we talk about in this song. I forget what he changed the situation to be to make Blurred Lines, Kidz Bop, appropriate. it but just it was the bosses were like no this song just the idea of this song is too filthy to be associated with and i don't even know if i'm supposed to say that but we're going to yeah i i

[00:52:57] Rob Howe: think that take is fair i wish i was in the room when they pitched the uh the the re-characterized you can't even say rewritten song because the entire context has to be taken uh into account I do want to see, there is a tragedy to me, and it's the career of Paula Patton. And I blame the song Blurred Lines for it because Paula Patton was married to Robin Thicke. Right. And then all of the controversy around the song, which then I think caused more investigation on him. I'm not sure, am I indicting him for something that he did or didn't do maybe, but I feel like he has since been either for some misdeeds as a result of this. Maybe. And anyway, if not, I'm sorry for misappropriating, but the marriage ended and that is a tragedy. It is. Because I think Paula Patton, it's a sliding door for me. She was in Mission Impossible 4. I thought the star was there. I was an early shareholder as a freshman in college. I said, hey, I'm going to bet all of my life savings that this woman is going to be a big star for many years to come. Unfortunately, I think I was wrong.

[00:53:58] Dave Holmes: Wow. Yeah. And who would have imagined Robin Thicke would have longevity?

[00:54:03] Rob Howe: Right.

[00:54:03] Dave Holmes: It's crazy. that he'd end up on The Voice and stuff. Like, that's... I didn't see it coming. Didn't see it coming. Really didn't.

[00:54:09] Rob Howe: Okay, well, speaking of longevity, unfortunately, this band, this song was their one-hit wonder. And whether they're touring or not or what their Spotify numbers are, I can't say. And I did not do the research for it. But this song is The Great Escape by Boys Like Girls. And... Okay, you're going to have to refresh my memory on that one. Yeah, well, this is the Power Pop era. This is like 2007 timeframe. So we're big into the electro power pop punk bands. And the the Great Escape was this is like Angels and Airwaves time frame. So give me all of that. I'm telling you, I saw Tom DeLonge in 2008 crying out of both eyes, just bawling in 108 degree heat in Dallas. And he just like whimpered. I love you, Dallas. And it was like, you know, at that time, the best moment of my life.

[00:55:02] Dave Holmes: so wow yeah incredible wow i that was angels and airwaves is the sorry to interrupt but is the soundtrack of my partner and i meeting and like our whole first year together is set to that album yeah um 20 ish years ago the one with uh the adventure on it the adventure that is a

[00:55:25] Rob Howe: massively important album they they have you know you know they got the d-pad going they're playing the little guitar riff this is the the climax the the final song of the set like everybody's into it he's just tears running down his face i was like i couldn't i you know 20 year old me i

[00:55:41] Dave Holmes: was like having the time of my life he's well i interviewed him about uh ufos by the way a few years ago did you what is his incredible thoughts he started a like a foundation that does ufo research and they're like they have things like their findings have been talked about in congressional hearings nasa has had has like it has their seal of approval is what i'm saying wow like he's he's legit when it comes to that stuff but he's yeah once you get him started

[00:56:10] Rob Howe: you cannot stop him i yeah i imagine you know again when you find what you're you know what really lights you up creatively you know you never know what it might be god god bless but what is the great escape the great escape song the lyric in question starts let's get drunk and drive around and make peace with an empty town. And that was one that even as a young, you know, 17, 18 years old, when I first heard it, I was like, well, I feel like they just told us not to do that. And so they've since kind of retconned the lyrics. But if you go and you search like original lyrics to Great Escape, you will find that it is from the band Boys Like Girls, you know, let's get drunk and drive around and make peace with an empty town.

[00:56:49] Dave Holmes: Well, it is an empty town to their credit. Okay. There are fewer things to hit, fewer people to hit. It's an empty town. They're being responsible in that way. Right. In that way, that's true.

[00:56:58] Rob Howe: And they're trying to make peace about it. So I think that, you know, they're escaping. It's a tale as old as time, you know. Yeah. Coming of age tale, trying to put this little town behind us, go see what the world's got out there for us to offer. Uh-huh.

[00:57:11] Dave Holmes: They're moving toward their destiny and their emotional health. Yeah, that's right.

[00:57:16] Rob Howe: Throw it away, forget yesterday. We'll make the great escape.

[00:57:19] Dave Holmes: Okay. Okay. I don't know this song at all, but I'm going to put it on the second.

[00:57:24] Rob Howe: I'm sorry that this is the song I had to introduce you to. But hey, you know, that's how it goes.

[00:57:28] Dave Holmes: Yeah, I might love it. If it's anything like Angels and Airwaves, I'm on board.

[00:57:32] Rob Howe: Yeah, I mean, it's in the pantheon, but it's not, you know, it's in the ballpark. We'll take it. Okay, love it. Dave Holmes, thank you for entertaining this incredible little side mission towards the end of the pod. I love it. And for your friendship and companionship through this life with diabetes, I'm grateful to know you.

[00:57:50] Dave Holmes: Likewise, likewise. Likewise, you truly are, you know, after my diagnosis, I got to know a few people who really helped me become active again, because that's scary when you first are on insulin. And like, you know, I had some bad experiences where I got super low and that's really scary. And you and Craig Stubing and like there I have a handful of people who I really credit with like making me giving me like a model of how I can live, how I can continue to live and be as active as I want to be. and like have lunch the way they want to have lunch, just basic stuff, you know, that I had to really relearn from the beginning. And I can't tell you how powerful and how important it was to see people like you and like Craig and like the, you know, the first few people I met just living and just like just being alive and not surviving, but like really thriving and staying active and all that. Like that was, I really, that eased my mind at a time when I really needed it. So thank you.

[00:58:54] Rob Howe: Well, yeah, I'll send it right back to you. Every time I see your name on a byline in an article that you're publishing or a project that you're working on, I'm like, hey, I know Dave because of diabetes, and he's out there doing that alongside managing living with type 1 every day. Thank you. Thanks for leading the charge, my man.