Pay or Die Film

[00:00:02] Rob Howe: You guys know that occasionally at Diabetics Doing Things, we get to be part of some pretty cool collaborations. And as a member of the diabetes media, we get exclusive access sometimes. So a duo, a filmmaking duo that I have known now for a few years and co-hosted a panel in National Diabetes Awareness Month 2021 with Scott Alexander Ruderman and Rachael Dyer, who are the filmmakers behind the documentary film, Pay or Die. You guys have probably heard about Pay or Die on the Diabetes Online community over the years. And we have great news that this March, so March, 2023 at South by Southwest, March 11th, Pay or Die is premiering at the South by Southwest Film Festival. And not only is the film premiering, there's also a panel on March 12th in Austin, a live panel that includes Scott, diabetes advocate, Nichole Smith-Holt, who's also featured in the film, Texas representative and type 1 diabetic, James Talarico and S. Vincent Rajkumar from the Mayo Clinic. So that panel is happening on March 12th. The premiere of pay or die is March 11th, and you can still get tickets online. If you're listening online, you can go to the show notes for links to the panel, to tickets at the film festival and to payordiefilm.com, which is the website for the film with all of the information that Scott and Rachael talk about coming up in this interview. So please enjoy this interview with Scott Alexander Ruderman and Rachael Dyer. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Diabetics Doing Things. We are telling the amazing stories of people with diabetes from all over the world. And I am very excited to introduce today's guests. They're my friend who become my friends. They're creatives. Scott lives with type 1 diabetes and Rachael, his partner and collaborator has been along for the journey. So I'd love to introduce you guys to Scott Ruderman and Rachael Dyer. Welcome to the show guys. Thanks, Rob. We're

[00:02:02] Scott Ruderman: so happy to be here and excited to chat to you about the next stages of the film.

[00:02:08] Rob Howe: That's right. So in the intro, we talked about the film is pay or die and you guys are in a very exciting time for the film because the public is now going to be brought in as it debuts at South by Southwest 2023, March 12th in Austin. It's also going to have a live panel with you and some of the folks from the film and other supporters. I've got the event in the show notes. So if you're listening to this interview here in the next couple of weeks, you can go and attend if you're in that area or going down to South by Southwest. Definitely a can't miss event. So we've talked before and those who've been, you know, big fans of the pod and following on social for that amount of time, probably remember during National Diabetes Awareness Month in 2021, I got to host a panel discussion with both of you during National Diabetes Awareness Month. And we talked about sort of the inspiration for the film and what stories were going to be told. And it was a very community forward event. And I think we had like 40 or 50 folks from the online community who joined us on that day and really talked about that project. So I'd love to kind of dive in now, almost 18 months since then, and just talk about how things have been going since then. There's been some big developments, but how are you guys? And thanks for

[00:03:20] Scott Ruderman: coming and welcome back to the show. Thanks, Rob. I will say 18 months ago, it sounds like it was just yesterday we spoke to you, but a lot has happened. Like you mentioned, we are so thrilled to finally bring the film to life at such an amazing festival, one of the biggest festivals in the world. That is only a film festival, but music festival, and also has the opportunity to go beyond just showing the film, but to talk about it and put it on the front stage of the world and really dive into the issue and see how we can make change as creators.

[00:03:56] Rob Howe: Well, and for those who are listening and have never been to a South by Southwest, there really isn't any other event like it that I've been to. It kind of takes over all of downtown Austin. There's all the bars and restaurants and lots of companies doing cool activations and events. And it really is just a great vibe and environment and energy to it. And I think, you know, with the film festival at the sort of beginning of the film tech and music really does set the tone. So I'm really excited to kind of see what also like media covering you guys as a premiere and talking about, you know, diabetes at large, just being in the sort of zeitgeist and in the media is an exciting thing for me just as an onlooker, as a casual onlooker. But obviously for you guys, we get to see pay or die finally, you know, reach the public and do its world premiere. So for those who weren't able to join us last November or two Novembers ago, I suppose, let's talk a little bit about the origin and the inspiration for Pay or Die. And where did it come from? And you guys have shared your story together. And I love how that's really the foundational part of it. So where did the concept first start for the both of you?

[00:05:00] Scott Ruderman: Well, Rachael and I were filmmakers in the industry. That's how we met on a production. Rachael was a producer at the time and I was the director of photography. And, you know, after just talking about it, you know, and her understanding what, you know, I'm living with type 1 diabetes and telling her about it and her telling me about, you know, kind of her experience as a reporter talking about medical refugees in the United States, you know, we kind of knew the issue was going on. We happened to be both in Canada and Rachael was like, you know, try it. Go into a Canadian pharmacy and see if you can get cheaper insulin. And I was hesitant at first, but I went in and the pharmacist presented all the options to me. You know, it was one of those like moments where you're like, wow, exciting, but so frustrated at the same time. And, you know, it was kind of like that you're torn. And for the first time, I'm actually feeling accepted in a pharmacy and alone in another country having this condition. And that was what pushed us. I mean, we came back, we did the research, and we were shocked about what people were doing in the United States to afford their medication, the lengths they were going to, what they were putting themselves against. And we said, we need to make a film as filmmakers about this, you know, and let's do it. And four years later, here we are. But it's been a journey. It's been a hard journey. It's been, you know, quite a learning curve for both of us and a reality, you know, a shock. But, you know, it's important that these stories like this are told for things to change.

[00:06:42] Rob Howe: Well, and it's a story that's so personal to both of you, obviously, like with, you know, Scott, obviously living with diabetes and Rachael with your history of journalism, you know, especially, you know, medical refugees from America. And just to add context to that for listeners, you guys have seen in the media quite frequently over the last few years, caravans of people going across the border to Mexico or to Canada to get supplies for themselves and for others in their community. For exactly the reason that you said, Scott, is that you can go there and they present the options to you and you pay cash and almost no questions asked in many cases. And so, you know, the reflection for you guys coming back is to say, wow, you know, more people need to know about the realities of the hoops that we have to jump through here in the United States around insulin pricing, which as we're talking and recording in February 2023, has been at the forefront of the media coverage here recently. it's also been in the last few State of the Union addresses across both administrations, other platforms on the national stage. And why is it so important for you guys, from a contextual perspective, for the film to come out now, today, in 2023?

[00:07:48] Scott Ruderman: Yeah, I think that why this issue is, and it's so important for us to have this film out this year, is because it is being talked about in the meter. It is top of mind in a lot of politics, legislation, discussions, news, media. And, you know, I think that now is the time for us to be able to tell this story and make the change. And we want to do it ahead of the elections in 2024, where it's, you know, it's going to be all about the elections. There's going to be a lot of noise around the election. So if we can get both parties interested and understand this topic ahead of that time and get the voices and everyone to rally around it and to see that not only access to insulin is a huge issue, but healthcare in America in general is, you know, a huge issue. And I think that is the point of this film is to shine a light on access to insulin as like the tip of the iceberg of what is happening across all of America for so many people who are suffering and struggling with access to affordable medication for so many different conditions and diseases. So that's why we want to make sure that this change can come in now. It's very timely. And, you know, this is a great opportunity for us to be able to do that and for everyone to work

[00:09:10] Rob Howe: together to make that change. I totally agree. And, you know, just to your point, it is gaining momentum within legislation. You guys even have a member of the Texas House of Representatives who's going to be on the panel promoting the film. So it's good to see that on our leadership in this country, at least some members of each of the parties are at least paying closer attention to insulin in particular, but as you said, the entire healthcare system for Americans.

[00:09:39] Scott Ruderman: Yeah. And I think what's really nice about it, and we won't dive too much into the politics of it all, but it is a bipartisan issue. And it is something where both sides of the collective can come together and want to work together to ensure that something is done about this. So I think that's what makes this film unique, is it is something that can make a change moving forward,

[00:10:02] Rob Howe: and especially as we come into 2024. I totally agree. And we've often said on this podcast that regardless of political affiliation or where you're from in the world, we're all but one autoimmune chronic illness diagnosis from really caring about access to healthcare. So yeah, I think from both sides of the aisle, hopefully we'll get a lot of support for that very soon. Moving forward though, bringing this film to life. You said you've been working on this for four years. That's actually when I first heard about the project, one of your early collaborators and I were at an event and he mentioned it. And it was funny. We were actually talking about potentially promoting the film on the podcast. So today, as I was going back and trying to figure out sort of the paper trail of the last few years between our two projects. It was cool to see like, wow, it has been four years and here we are on the podcast. We're here on the cusp of the official premiere. What's it been like to work on this together for such a long time? I think that's something that I, doing this podcast now for seven years, working on various creative projects throughout my professional career, the longevity of a project like this and the energy and the frequency of checking back in and continuing to move things forward it runs this it can expand rapidly and become a huge project so what's it been like you know working on this for so long between the two of you I think I'll talk about it from the perspective

[00:11:22] Scott Ruderman: of our style as filmmakers in terms of following very human character driven stories I think that our specialty of working together and what we love to focus on is human interest stories and seeing it through the eyes of that character and those subjects and really living and breathing with them over a certain amount of time and you know through those four years you see people develop change you go on those journeys with them and you really see character transformation and I think that is why we love doing what we do in all of the different aspects of filmmaking is really being with those subjects but I think what was really special for this film in particular was Scott being a type 1 diabetic, myself being a type none, but the intimacy of like, we went in primarily just the two of us on a lot of those shoots and we built trust with, with our subjects. And we're able to do that because Scott came at it from a lens of knowing how to live with type 1 diabetes, knowing what that means for, you know, physical, emotional, financial and then myself I guess seeing it from the partner's perspective and being able to relate to that other person as a carer as you know some a voice of reason from the other side so I think that was a really nice beauty and opportunity we had with this with this film but as Scott as Scott will attest and tell you it did have challenges because you were so close yeah I mean before even just being so close I mean it was also challenging to realize that it took four years for anything to really to happen I mean we followed the story you know one of our lead subject Nichole we followed her story in Minnesota for years I mean what she's gone through up and down up and down you know those are the realities of it and that's documentary right you can't create an ending You know, it evolves. So it takes time, you know, and part of all that is going on that journey, watching this film and seeing how much it takes to fight an issue. personally as a, as a, you know, having type 1 diabetes and having that camera on my shoulder, being so close to it, it's, it's, it's kind of like a wake up call. It's the reality that I could be in, I can be in this position if I don't take care of myself, you know, I can be in this position if I don't find alternate ways to make sure I have extra insulin or be on top of making sure I have get jobs on the side to, to get the money to cover myself. I mean, And you live with this reality of like, well, what if something hits the fan? And, you know, what do you do? So it's a reminder. The whole four years working on the film was a reminder of all of that, of all of those, you know, those threats.

[00:14:26] Rob Howe: And doesn't it present you as a filmmaker with a unique perspective, like sharing that burden, like whole, obviously like shouldering the camera and, you know, bringing the perspective from a film perspective. But also, you know, I experienced this very similarly on the podcast. Like we don't have to, we don't have to spend a lot of time in expository, you know, conversations about what, where we're coming from. We can dive right into the real issues because on both sides, we have a shared understanding of what we're going through. And I think our listeners who have been to meetups or, you know, have been to diabetes events where instantly you're able to just skip all the explanation about your devices and your injections and counting carbs. and you're looking across the aisle or the table or shaking hands with a person or in a Zoom room with somebody who really knows what you're going through in a way that many people don't, no matter how close they are to you.

[00:15:17] Rachael Dyer: I mean, yeah, I think that what I've seen from that perspective, again, when I first started and went before I met Scott, I knew nothing about type 1 diabetes, I'll be very honest. But I think the biggest thing that I learned straight on doing the research, becoming involved in the community is, it is such a strong community. It is such a supportive community. It is a community that shares that camaraderie of like being together and supporting one another. And I think that I loved that right from the beginning and was a very powerful thing. I think for me to see as, you know, someone who didn't live with it, but how, you know, all the time you'll see someone, you know, injecting themselves or someone wearing a device and straight away you'll come up to each other and you'll chat and it'd be just, I've never quite seen something like that when it comes to like a medical issue. And I love that. I just think it's a really special bond that type ones have. And, you know, it was great to kind of witness that, I think from the outside perspective as well. I a hundred percent agree.

[00:16:28] Rob Howe: And it's sometimes funny because I'm a very big presence. I'm a large guy. And so sometimes I'll just run up to you and be like, Hey, I saw your, like I saw your pod or your sensor. And I'm like, Hey, like I, I get it. I, me too, you know, and I'll show him my pump or something like that. And usually it takes them like 30 seconds. Like what is going on here? Yeah. Yeah. Always, always good feelings. Okay. So back to the project a little bit after our 2021 panel and sort of round table discussion, you guys have had some pretty big announcements within the film project, even bringing on some like major Hollywood producers, a couple of, you know, personal mutual friends of ours who were, who came on to also help produce the project. You know, how did that change the trajectory of that project? What can you tell us about that journey? And, you know, what was it like to get that recognition from real industry pros that, you know, this was, this was going to premiere, like this, this really had legs.

[00:17:18] Scott Ruderman: I think, you know, what's interesting, everyone that's come on to the project, you know, initially, you know, had some sort of relation to it. But as the project evolved, more people saw this as a film about healthcare, right? This is important. Healthcare is important to a lot of people in this country. and they saw this as a way to create discussion and say look this is evidence like our health care system is not working for a lot of people in this country and I think that's where we got that support you know and um it changing the the trajectory of the film I I it's helped us really get the film out there you know what's really nice is everyone that did come on board really loved the approach we took of, you know, kind of following these character stories, getting into the human stories and being with the people and not just being another talking, interviewing head of statistics, 20, you know, around during the whole movie, like we were in it with the people. And, and that's the perspective that most people relate to. so everyone loved the film or loves the film for that so I think that's why you know we're able to bring everyone together on this project yeah and especially as you said Rob like the big players like we have Sarah Silverman as an EP and you know what we loved about her coming on board was that she doesn't have a direct connection to type 1 diabetes but she was just she's so passionate about healthcare and wanting to make a change in healthcare in this country. And I think it's that passion and drive and necessity that a change is needed. And I think, you know, having the celebrity wait or like, you know, some of the big players that have come on board in the film, it's people realize that and they want to do what they can to help to make that change and to make noise about

[00:19:26] Rob Howe: the film and the issue. Absolutely. Well, and I think it's really important because as you said, you know, you know, Sarah Silverman doesn't have a direct tie to diabetes, but everybody in the United States has a direct tie to healthcare and its impact and its importance. And, you know, really this is not a problem for just people with diabetes. This is a problem for all people. And, you know, I think that's something that, you know, in the community, like you said, we're a very strong community, but we're very small, small, but mighty. And I think, you know, it's really important for us to win outside support when they have no reason to really care about people with diabetes other than it's a, it's a large issue and they care about people. And so, you know, I'm excited also to see the human stories, because I think that's what we attach ourselves to are these people who are, you know, living these, you know, real lives, extraordinary and ordinary, and, you know, just trying to make ends meet one day at a time. And, you know, I think it's kind of a nice transition into our next like segment or our next question about, you know, creative work within the diabetes space while you're living with diabetes, you know, I'm sure while you're holding that heavy camera on your shoulder, you know, you're experiencing highs and lows alongside of it. And, you know, I, I, I know, and I know others that work in the diabetes space or lots of creative energy to diabetes can know that that weight of diabetes and also like, where, where am I, is my income coming in to manage my supplies and insurance and technology and all of those things, like, what was it like to kind of live the reality that you're covering in your work? And did that ever become overwhelming or, you know, how did you manage, you know, that when it, you know, sort of came to a head? You know, it's, it's always a

[00:21:03] Scott Ruderman: challenge. You know, one of the things about living with type 1 diabetes and is that it's 24 seven, right? There's no break. There's a, Oh yeah, I can turn this off now and go back to, you know an easy life you know an easy life but no it's you know you're constantly thinking about it it's you know subconsciously too right it's it's just on the back of your mind whether you you know whatever you're doing you're like oh am i dropping my blood sugar high i think you know technology has has made it easier but you know it's it's something that it's all with feeling You know, in the work I do as a cameraman, I'm in different, you know, situations where access is not there, but I always carry the snacks I need. I always make sure that my blood sugars are elevated. I keep on top of them. But, you know, there's stress. There's all these other factors that, you know, you deal with on a daily basis. So, you know, it's hard to just say there's one way to do it. And I think any type 1 will say there is no one way to do it. you know every every day is a new you find a challenge right every day you you know you experience a high a low I mean preparation you can only prepare for so much you know you don't know what's going to come to you and and you know in a way maybe I'm a little more prepared for that in the sense of being a documentary cameraman you don't know what's going to happen in front of the lens you know what you get is what you get and you either walk away with an amazing result or you walk away with a missed result. So same thing, right? You either have a good day, your blood, your blood sugars are elevated, or you were high all day, or you had two lows today, you know. But I think what's really been also interesting to see it from the other side is, and we cover this in the three kind of key storylines that we follow in our film is, it's a financial, an emotional, mental, and a physical burden. And, you know, that is something that Scott, yourself, like everyone has to live with daily and to see, you know, those three kind of paths, having to navigate them is hugely challenging. But it also, what I find impressive with what you do, with what Scott does, it allows, you're still being a freelance filmmaker, you're still creating the content you can, you can do it. And I think that that sometimes is why it's so difficult with type 1 is because it can be an invisible disease. And so people, you know, are so unsuspecting of like, oh, you have type 1, but you can still do all of this stuff. So yeah, I think that's a really important thing. I agree. And I also see, you know, what,

[00:23:50] Rob Howe: what is invisible to most people, which is the decisions and sort of negotiations that you have with yourself with creative projects or with, you know, really digging in and going all in on you know, a passion project at first that, you know, can become your life's work in many cases. And, you know, a thing that I have thought about for many years and, you know, working to find ways to create other opportunities for, for creators with diabetes is I know that there's someone out there with an amazing idea for a creative project. Who's not making the jump because they have really good reasons to stay at their job because they have health insurance or because they have a steady income. And so it's important to me to share creative stories like yours, where, you know, you're dedicating four years plus of your life to this story, using all the skills that you've acquired over your career. And you're not only working on this, you're also working on, you know, other gigs or other projects and, you know, using your skills to, you know, help pay the bills and create opportunities for you to do the work that's most important to you. So I don't know, maybe talk a little bit about that. I'm sure you've had moments where you're, you're both kind of looking at each other and, you know, you're low on energy and you're, or you're low on motivation or you're low on funds or whatever the case may be. And you're like, are we doing that? You know, why are we doing this? How, when you get in those moments, like what would you tell someone who's, who's maybe overthinking, like taking that jump or who's afraid of what's on the other side of that risk?

[00:25:07] Scott Ruderman: I think for, you know, commitment is, is really, you know, you know, finding belief in yourself and commitment and trying to find some sort of hope to get yourself out of bed in the morning is, are, is really what, you know, you could kind of use to drive yourself. I know it's, you know, easier said than done. And the reality comes down to living with a condition that costs a lot of money as you need an income. And it is very hard because it's not the fact that what if you make the money or not, it's but the process of thinking of that, right? The process of waking up every day, am I going to have a job or not? And if I don't, my life is on the line, or I need to figure out a way to keep myself alive. You know, fortunately, you know, I haven't been in the position where I had to ration my insulin, but the thought is still there. So, you know, even though I'm able to attain jobs to allow me to work on, you know, independent projects like this, the thought is certainly still instilled in me. There's absolutely no way where I'm like, oh, I'll be fine. Diabetes for the rest of my life. No, it's, it's there. It's real.

[00:26:22] Rob Howe: And I think that, oh, I'm sorry, Rachael, please go ahead.

[00:26:25] Rachael Dyer: No, I just wanted to say, look at, like, what I think is super important is I go back to that idea of the T1 community being so strong and why podcasts like this, like your show is so important because it is all about community and community support. And especially creatively, if, you know, tight ones and their partners or colleagues or business partners can come together and support each other through this, I think that's, you know, key as well. And just super important to kind of encourage and, you know, keep each other going and be supportive of projects. And especially working on a project like this, you know, you think about it, well, if I stop this project, then there's no solution. If we could continue this project and possibly make change, then maybe we could, you know, relief that fear for so many people. So people could do what they want and go and get a master's degree and work a job that they can afford their medication and not have to wait tables to be on subsidiaries so they could get benefits, you know. So that's kind of what pushes you that you're not only helping yourself when doing this and making a film, you're lending a voice to many that are working a nine to five job that they might not want to do, but because they want to be an artist or work with animals. That's the real motivator that we say, no, we have to get this done.

[00:28:04] Rob Howe: Well, and I think too, it's a, like, what possibilities could this short term pain open up for other people? And, you know, that that's where it really does become communal is like, if we can tell these stories, if we can get this out there, if we can do this project justice and make our art in a way that that others can be can buy into and can see themselves in. And because as you're talking, Scott, about, you know, it's sort of that shadow that's with you is like, it's not just my day-to-day management. You guys heard my alarm probably earlier in this recording listeners of my, my blood sugar is like one 80 right now. Yeah. We've got high blood sugars, low blood sugars day in and day out. But that shadow that follows us is that we're walking a very tight line and that looming on the other side of, you know, of a bad, a couple of bad weeks or a couple of bad, you know, for me, bad projects or bad client engagements or whatever the case may be is me having to decide how I'm going to get what I need to survive. And I think that's so tangible. And that's, that's another great reason why I think that, you know, so many people with diabetes are going to see themselves through the different characters in, in your film. And that's, what's going to, I think, rally a lot of support around it in the community at large as well. So really looking forward to seeing that. And I think hopefully, you know, I know that a goal for me for this podcast is to, you know, when 16 year old Rob was looking for people with diabetes who were doing things that, you know, I was interested in that they'll see someone. So future, some Scott thinking, you know, kid is going to see this film and say, wow, maybe I can bring something like this to life. And, you know, I think that's a legacy that, you know, in the short time that type 1 diabetes has been livable really only the last hundred years, uh, you know, it's cool to be on the forefront of those types of things. So I'm really looking forward to seeing that response. I do want to shift before we find, before we ask about like how we can support as listeners in the community as you know as just as community members like i want to talk about you guys and work life and love you guys are partners and creative partners and business partners and like that there's so many layers of that and i think you live this project like not only scott like living with diabetes but you guys are both filmmakers and journalists and storytellers and also professional and personal lovers, partners. Like what's it like to have your life so interconnected and then like getting to the point where we are now where you're on a press tour for this project you've been working on and real people who are not involved with the project are gonna see the output of you guys' work. Like what has that been like for the both of you?

[00:30:51] Rachael Dyer: Yeah, I think the faces say it all. Yeah. You know, I would say sacrifice in a good way, commitment. I think what's amazing is that we did have each other to lean on in the hard moments, in the challenges, right? We had that trust. you know making a film from scratch that's talking about such a big issue is really difficult and not only were we able to put amazing team together but at the end of the day you know we could we could vent on that level and we're both in the industry so I think that really helps understanding kind of the the way the trends are and things like that and the lifestyle of what it's like to be a filmmaker I mean that's that's the other thing too I mean documented being a documentary filmmaker is is a very certain lifestyle and you have to sacrifice many things yeah and I think sacrificing like you know so so much I think that's the the hardest thing is doing the juggling act of trying to balance life work you know and and enjoying like you know your own personal time too I think that was the the hardest thing is is that for us to try and separate ourselves from working on this because again it is so personal to us and we live with it every single day even when we're not documenting on the film we're personally living it as a couple and partners in in business but it was it was definitely I take it as a blessing because we learnt so much I think through the eyes too of our of our subjects like we we were sitting there and we would learn things as we watched other couples or the mother and daughter or, you know, Nichole being a mother who lost her son. I think that was so emotionally, you know, challenging for us but was also really important for us to see our lives through the lens of those characters so personally. And I think you'll kill me for saying this but I'm going to say it. if we we lasted four years through the film and he managed to propose at the end so we've just we've just had an engagement so if we're like if we can make it through the film a pandemic and then get engaged there is hope there is hope at the end there is some hope for two of you for

[00:33:24] Rob Howe: the two of you it's congratulations wow what what a huge what a huge news bomb this is great this is why we do the pod guys to get the scoops the early scoops congratulations to you both

[00:33:35] Scott Ruderman: but you know you you bring it into your your your family your life your family yeah when the when you are the you know the principal makers of the film especially sharing it it's you know we we're doing this together yeah we have differences we also you know we we balance all of that you know

[00:33:56] Rob Howe: well that's very cool and thank you guys for sharing and being so open about like you know your relationship and your life. I know that those, that's not exactly what we all go on podcasts to dig into, but it's always really curious. You know, I'm always really curious because when you're working in diabetes and you're living with diabetes and you're bringing somebody else, who's also your partner into that, you know, there's just so much, you know, at stake and there's so much going on. So props to you guys for, for making it through. And you know, the little thing, global pandemic, you know, all of that stuff that's, you know, no big deal for you guys. So congratulations. So I do want to, you know, kind of get to that question. Like, What can we do as listeners of this podcast, as watchers of these clips on social media, even if we can't attend the premiere and the panel on March 13th, how can we support Pay or Die?

[00:34:40] Scott Ruderman: Yeah, I mean, I think so. The key thing is that, believe it or not, as independent filmmakers, we are still fundraising. So we do have our GoFundMe page and the opportunity for people to still donate to this project. Because although it sounds like we're finishing the film, we still have the rest of the year to roll it out and to go to these festivals, to promote it, to make sure that people hear about it. And, you know, to just make sure that we still don't, we don't stop dead, we keep going. And, you know, so we have that opportunity to still donate. And whether, even if you don't donate, we have our website, which offers resources to people who are looking for assistance and help. And also too, we're like open for people just to reach out to us as filmmakers. You know, if they want to learn about, you know, the industry and being a creative, we're here for support and, you know, happy to offer that too. You know, one of the things about making this film, and yes, it's been four years, we're not at the end. It's a new start because not only do we hope to get it into festivals and amazing distributor, one of the things we are, you know, in the midst of doing and going to launch after South by is our impact campaign. We really want to, we really want to push this film out there and allow people to, to, to take this film, to get it in the eyes of people that are change makers. So we are initiating a social impact campaign following this film. So really, I kind of stay tuned and hang tight because hopefully you'll be able to get involved with us.

[00:36:23] Rob Howe: Yeah, we'll count us in. I'll skip over my checks and balances on my team and just committing ourselves to that. But I think you brought up something else that's interesting and I only know a fraction of is that making a film is not just producing the film and exporting it and hitting, checking the box and done. You guys obviously now have the festival circuit and getting the distribution so that more people can see it. And hopefully we'll be hosting the Diabetics Doing Things Watch Party when that all gets announced. So I really want to just applaud you guys for the work that you've done thus far. Cannot wait to hear more about the Impact campaign and count us into continuing to share that message out as well. But guys, I really thank you for your time today and for just being longtime collaborators. Even just a couple of conversations over four years, I'm just very grateful to be in the wake of your influence and to be a small, small, small part of this project. And I just know it's gonna be super impactful for tons and tons of people. So chapter one of the next phase, March 12th, not 13th, March 12th in Austin. and the links will be in the show notes for all our listeners. And we'll go ahead and share that on social media as well. So keep it locked here for more information. And Scott and Rachael, you guys are the filmmakers behind Pay or Die, which is premiering at South by Southwest 2023. Congratulations. And thank you guys so much for being here.

[00:37:51] Scott Ruderman: Thank you so much, Rob. We loved it. It's great to see you.